This Israel supporter is no 'brainwashed grunt'

From Cliona Campbell

I wish to voice my disgust at not only Seán Mac Cann's letter re my time spent volunteering on an Israeli army base (Letters, 15 August), but the fact that it ever came to print in the first place. Labelling anyone a "brainwashed, ill-educated grunt" is not only childish, but displays a high level of ignorance and inability to express one's views in a mature and civilised manner, and has no place in any reputable newspaper.

Yet he is curious as to what I believe, so I will duly inform him – I believe in the only democracy in existence in the Middle East, I believe in the right of Irish people to openly express their political views without facing a bombardment of public harassment, threats and intimidation and I believe that if the Irish media continues their biased pro-Palestinian monopoly without considering Israel's point of view, we are no better than any dictatorship ourselves.

Cliona Campbell,

Co Cork

August 22, 2010

Comments

#1 Charles Murphy commented, on August 22, 2010 at 9:12 p.m.:

Cliona had better not have too much belief in Israel's so-called democracy because it appears to be very deficient in important aspects. Is she not aware that Palestinians remain burdened with crippling travel, work and security restrictions? That they cannot reclaim stolen property or acquire Israeli citizenship? They also have to watch as Jews born outside Israel with no prior ties to the country become citizens and receive government-subsidised housing. In the West Bank they live in squalid, ringed ghettos governed by military courts, while Jews, as citizens, are subject to civilian law and have constitutional protection.
It sounds more like apartheid.
Chas Murphy.

#2 Michael commented, on August 23, 2010 at 12:25 a.m.:

Charles Murphy ( comment #1 ) denigrates Israel's democratic status but provides very little information to substantiate his allegations other than very generalized and sweeping comments. The Palestinians to whom he refers are coming into the state of Israel mainly, if not exclusively from Gaza. Gaza is the base from which the Palestinian terrorists sent women and children with explosives attached to their bodies to carry out homocide bombings, although Palestinian propaganda opts to call them suicide bombings. Imagine the cold-blooded ruthlessness in exploiting brainwashed women and children - these things done under the direction of the leaders of the Palestinian terrorist groups. The very same men sat safely far from the mayhem they instigated. Israeli security has no option but to have extremely tight security precautions in place to counter such activities. Jews can prove the provenance of their enthicity and have had ancient ties to the homeland to which so many have returned. But if Charles Murphy cares to investigate he will find that there is no such thing as Palestinian ethnicity, but they are in fact Arabs. In fact the population of Jordan is made up of a very large percentage of Palestinians, but Jordan has never seen fit to accomodate them and cede to them territory in the artificially British-created state of Jordan. Furthermore if Charles Murphy is interested in historical accuracy he should examine how the British and French created many of those countries - countries such as Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc,. But the territory of the present state of Israel was inhabited by the people of ancient Israel and Jews have been inhabiting there continually, although not in as great numbers as today. Eleswhere in Israel Palestinians have the freedom to participate in democratic elections within Israel and are not prevented to practice their religion of Islam. The freedoms guaranteed by the Israeli constitution for legitimate political activity, religious freedom - the practice and promotion of religion and the respect for females ( women and children ) is absent in the countries surrounding Israel. It is a fact that those who profess religions other than Islam - Christianity for example - cannot practice their faith openly in most, if not all, the countries surrounding Israel. It is also true those who promote Christianity or any religion other than Islam in those states will be persecuted, prosecuted and imprisoned - and are sometimes murdered by terrorist groups which are tolerated by the state authorities of these same countries. The claims I have made are verifiable, but it is interesting that those who so vehemently condemn Israel and falsely accuse Israel of human rights violations refuse to acknowledge the rampant human rights abuses in the countries surrounding Israel.

#3 David commented, on August 23, 2010 at 12:02 p.m.:

''so called democracy'' - Charles, If Israel is not a democracy then what would you label Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria ect !! ? To any rational thinker Israel is more of a democracy then any Arab state will ever be. Israel must take such security measures due to suicide bombings prior to the wall, rocket attacks.

#4 Corrxxx commented, on August 23, 2010 at 5 p.m.:

#2 Michael: "It is a FACT that those who profess religions other than Islam - Christianity for example - cannot practice their faith openly in MOST, if not ALL, the countries surrounding Israel. It is also true those who PROMOTE Christianity or any religion other than Islam in those states will be persecuted, prosecuted and imprisoned", the only problem I have with what you're saying is what you purport to be "fact". These are the countries that surround Israel.
Jordan: Approx 6% are Christians and are well integrated in the Jordanian society and have a high level of freedom. Nearly all belong to the middle or upper classes.
Egypt: 15-20% are coptic christians. they do not enjoy proportional representation but are most certainly not persecuted.
Lebanon: 40% of people are christians. there is a power sharing agreement between the muslim and christian parties.
Syria: 10% are christian, for example in Damascus masses are held every Sunday and civil servants are given Sunday mornings off to allow them to attend church, even though Sunday is a working day in Syria. Syria does not profess a state religion.
By promote I believe you mean "Proselytizing"-the act of attempting to convert people to another opinion and, particularly, another religion. Seeing how divisive and oppresive early attempts at spreading christianity abroad were I can see why the might have a problem with it, not that I condone any violent action as a result. Again this is not so much a problem with the countries I mentioned above as it is in Saudi or Iran.
I realise the realities in some countries differ from the stats, but be careful of what you put forward as fact. It compromises your arguement.

#5 Charles murphy commented, on August 23, 2010 at 10 p.m.:

Michael(#2), travel, work and security restrictions on WestBank Palestinians are not generalisations, they are facts on the ground, as are gun-toting belligerent Jewish settlers. Settlers indeed, whose forebears are extremely unlikely to have had any connection to ancient Palestine, as writers like Israeli academic Israel Shahak have shown, the vast majority of world Jewry is descended from the Turkic peoples of eastern Ukraine/western Kasakhstan.
If Israel wishes to be seen as a country of Western values, then it must give back the land and property it has ethnically cleansed from the Palestinians; it can do this by abiding by long-standing UN Resolutions, if it does not, then the only outcome will be a single state and World opinion will eventually force the administration to give Palestinians full human rights.
That then would be the end of the Zionist dream, but perhaps real hope for all.
cm.

#6 Michael commented, on August 24, 2010 at 12:44 p.m.:

Charles Murphy (#5), I never said that that your reference to security restrictions were generalizations - but I made clear why they are in place. It was that brainwashed women and children being sent to with bombs attatched to their bodies to carry out homocide/suicide bombings against, in the main, innocent civilians. Victims have included Muslims, Jrews and others. But the men who sent them out stayed safely behind - not willing to sacrifice themselves. I note you haven't taken on board the fact that there is no such people as ethnic Palestinians - and those who are called Palestinian are of Arabic origin. You didn't deal with the fact that a latge minority of the Jordanian population are Palestinians, but Jordan has not - nor ever will - cede land to them. The countries of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, UEA, etc,. were the result of the land being divided up by the British and French. Finally - human rights abuses are common in the countries surrounding Israel as I poited out clearly.

#7 Seán Murphy commented, on August 25, 2010 at 3:54 a.m.:

I will deal very briefly with the ethnicity of the Palestinians: the land of Palestine, of which Israel is a part, was never the exclusive territory of jews. It included other races, Samaritans,etc. The Palestinian people are descended from them. Also, according to the Old Testament, the jews came from outside and conquered the indigenous peoples of parts of Palestine, those parts they called Judea and Israel. See the books relating to Joseph. The Jews were a bellicose race and it seems some in modern Israel are no different.

#8 Charles Murphuy commented, on August 25, 2010 at 10:57 a.m.:

Palestinian-Arabs or Arab-Palestinians, it doesn't matter Michael, you are missing the real point that as the prospects for a 2-state solution fade, the increasingly apartheid-like nature of the coming single-state will further expose the racist ideology that underpins Zionism. As with apartheid South Africa, World opinion will eventually force full human rights for all Palestinians. The sad thing is that present Jewish administrations are likely to deal in more death and destruction before that happens.
To borrow a book title from Amos Elon: The Pity Of It All.
cm.

#9 Michael commented, on August 25, 2010 at 6:53 p.m.:

You think, in your own words, "world opinion will force human rights for all Palestinians ". World opinion hasn't had much effect in forcing Israel's neighbours to respect human rights within their own borders. Isn't strapping explosives to the bodies of brainwashed women and children and sending them out to murder innocent women and children an abuse of human rights? Isn't the stoning a woman to death for alleged adultery an abuse of human rights? I find it interesting that you fail to acknowledge that major human rights violations occur with the borders of the countries surrounding Israel - countries that were created by the British and the French mandates. THe Kingdom of Iraq was manufactured in 1921 for example. Territories were carved up and very little care was taken to preserve traditional areas of settlement. You say Palestinian-Arabs or Arab-Palestinians doesn't matter, but for years the term Palestinian has been used in an endeavour to persuade the world that there is such as thing as Palestinian ethnicity. The Oxford Concise Dictionary defines the term Palestinian in this way: " Palestinian - Adjective - relating to Palestine [ It never was a country or nation in history, but was an administrative region ] or its peoples. Noun - a member of the native Arab population of Palestine ". I have checked out in the Oxford Concise Encylopedia your claim, based on assertions by the Israeli academic Israel Shahak that world Jewry is descended from the Turkic people of easter Ukraine/western Kazhstan. There was nothing in the source I used to substantiate this claim and it isn't even mentioned as a theory. But the land by the Jewish people is the same land occupied by the Hebrews for thousands of years and has been to a greater or lesser degree up to the modern era. The claim by Sean Murphy ( Comment #7 ) is partially true. It was the occupying Romans who came up with the term Palestine and people called Samaritins did live within that region. The Oxford Concise Encylopedia defines Samaritan thus: " Member of a now nearly extinct Jewish community . . . . [ who ] claim to be those Jews of ancient Samaria who were not deported from Israel by the Assyrians in 772 BC ". But the descendants of the deported Jews later returned to their homeland, however the Samaritans remained there in the region of Palestine from the time of that occupation until the modern era - once the territory of ancient the ancient Kingdoms of Israel and Judah and now in the modern state of Israel.

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